It was always a question of when — not if — Mark Shapiro would leave ESPN for a top job at a major entertainment company. That time comes this week, when he becomes CEO of Washington Redskins owner Dan Snyder's Red Zone LLC, a new investment firm that is gunning for a controlling stake in theme park company Six Flags Inc.
Glib, confident and controversial, Shapiro has been a force in sports television since heading production on ESPN's "SportsCentury" series in 1997, when he was only 27 years old. By 2002 he was in charge of all production and programming at ESPN. Known for his forthright style and ability to juggle dozens of tasks, Shapiro was involved in almost every facet of the media juggernaut that is ESPN.
Street & Smith's SportsBusiness Journal's Andy Bernstein caught up with Shapiro last week for some reflections on his years at ESPN.
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| Mark Shapiro through the years |
| 1989 |
| Became an intern for NBC’s “SportsWorld” |
| 1990 |
| Worked as production assistant for NBC for the NBA Finals, Super Bowl, Wimbledon, “NFL Live” and the Breeders’ Cup |
| 1991 |
| Worked as associate producer for NBC’s coverage of Notre Dame football |
| 1992 |
| Was associate producer for NBC’s gymnastics coverage at the Barcelona Olympics |
| January 1997 |
| Named coordinating producer of ESPN’s Emmy and Peabody Award-winning “SportsCentury: 50 Greatest Athletes” |
| January 1999 |
| Named vice president and general manager of ESPN Classic |
| March 2001 |
| Named vice president and general manager of ESPN Classic and ESPN Original Entertainment |
| July 2001 |
| Named senior vice president and general manager, programming |
| September 2001 |
| “Pardon the Interruption,” developed by Shapiro, launches. |
| December 2001 |
| Helped negotiate ESPN/ABC’s six year, $2.4 billion NBA rights agreement, making ESPN the first network to have rights to all four major sports at once |
| March 2002 |
| Launched ESPN’s first original movie, “Season on the Brink” |
| September 2002 |
| Named executive vice president, programming and production, adding production to his responsibilities |
| September 2003 |
| Launched “Playmakers,” ESPN’s first original series; also brought Rush Limbaugh to “NFL Countdown” |
| October 2003 |
| Limbaugh resigns from “NFL Countdown” after making controversial remarks about Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb |
| February 2004 |
| “Playmakers” is canceled due to objections by NFL. |
| September 2004 |
| ESPN celebrates its 25th anniversary with the culmination of four months of special programming. |
| April 2005 |
| Completes negotiations on an eight year, $8.8 billion deal to bring “Monday Night Football” to ESPN |
| June 2005 |
| ESPN, led by Shapiro, does not exercise a $60 million option to keep rights to the NHL |
| August 2005 |
| Announces he will leave ESPN to become CEO of Dan Snyder’s Red Zone LLC |
SBJ: What are you going to miss most about ESPN?
Shapiro: The people. That's it. I love the company. I love my boss. I love the brand. I love sports. I love the partnerships I've had and the relationships I've built. But what you miss most in any facet of life when you switch gears is personal experiences. And that's the people you work with, the people that you live and breathe every day with side by side. You spend more time in life working than anything else. Kind of a sad commentary. But in doing so you forge very strong and intimate relationships with many people, internally and externally, and working with them day in and day out, charting new waters, brainstorming new ideas, challenging each other, that's what I'll miss most. And I'll never leave the friends. I'll always be here for the friends and the friendships I have at ESPN.
SBJ: If you had to pick one show or negotiation or initiative that you think really defines the time you spent at ESPN, what would it be?
Shapiro: Great question.
SBJ: I know it's hard to pick one, but ...
Shapiro: No, no. That's easy. I would tell you that the most significant acquisition was the NBA because it was at a time when ratings were declining on ESPN. We had just walked away from NASCAR. Our ratings were declining. People were questioning the strength of our brand. George [Bodenheimer] put me into a new job, and priority one was getting the NBA because I believed that it would give us new life. It would recharge our ratings. It would reinforce our brand. And it would tighten the relationship we have with sports fans. Not to mention the volume the NBA would provide, which is so important given the many assets at ESPN's disposal. ... And it did all that overnight.
In terms of shows, I think that that's really a two-parter. The two shows I'm most proud of are first and foremost "Outside The Lines Nightly," because it reinforced and reminded everyone of our commitment to journalism, to breaking stories, to analyzing the news and to enterprise journalism. And at the same time, on the same par, it would be "Pardon the Interruption" because it was a show that I wanted to launch for a couple of years, that I was determined to get on the air. All my treatments had been rejected, because people felt that either A), there weren't enough sports topics to carry a half-hour every day on top of "SportsCenter," or secondly they were afraid that it would compromise "SportsCenter," it would eat into "SportsCenter," it would make "SportsCenter" less relevant. And finally I got put into a position where I didn't have to get anyone to sign off to launch the show other than George. And he always supported me immensely. And I launched the show and it quickly became a hit. Not only did it become a hit where it now rates higher than "SportsCenter," but it lifted "SportsCenter" ratings as well. So much so that we were able to expand "SportsCenter" to 90 minutes in many cases.
SBJ: Where do things stand with Red Zone and the acquisition of Six Flags? How confident are you that that's going to go through?
Shapiro: Red Zone is merely an investment firm that Dan Snyder's established in an effort to create and acquire a portfolio of entertainment assets. So there's no telling where you go: movies, books, television ... you know, experiences. You know, dream and imagine and it can be done. That's really kind of the effort there. The start is obviously an effort to acquire an influential interest in Six Flags.
I feel that my time at ESPN more than anything else has been about brand building ... brand building and storytelling. And Six Flags offers the same opportunities. It's a brand that's real tired and sleepy and I would argue that's been damaged because there's been little or no attention paid to it by management over the past several years. When Bob Pittman was running the company at Time Warner, the stock was trading at 40, and today it's trading, you know, anywhere from 4 to 6. And that's just because it's ... there's been no innovation behind it. There's been no energy. And there's certainly been no inspiration.
And if you're looking to start an entertainment company, what a better base than a company like Six Flags, which reaches 35 million people a year who spend eight to 10 hours every day at the parks? They touch the brand. They experience the brand. And if you can capitalize on that relationship with the consumer, there's no telling what the future could be. But in the short term, I'm concentrated on increasing profits and cutting out debt. The company is ridiculously saddled in debt right now and we need to change that.
SBJ: Where does it stand in terms of the acquisition, of getting that influential interest, as you described it?
Shapiro: We have filed a proxy with the SEC and we're waiting for approval, and once we have approval we will seek consent from the shareholders, and you know, tell our story and hope that they're willing to come along for the ride.
SBJ: Are you confident that you and Dan Snyder will be able to get along?
Shapiro: I have absolutely not a trace of doubt that Dan and I will hit it off famously. The reason being, I really respect Dan. I respect what he's accomplished. And I respect the person that he is, which is: What you see is what you get. He wears his emotions on his sleeve. There are no false pretenses with Dan Snyder. He's a family man. He has three children. He's committed to his family. Without even winning as much as he'd like on the field, he's built the Washington Redskins into the most valuable franchise in all of sports. And with his marketing background in Snyder Communications, with the Redskins, and with the health care company, he made a lot of people a lot of money, so he must be doing something right. And fortunately, the thing that most impresses me is something I hold very absolutely essential to my core being, he's loyal. He's loyal beyond belief. And that's all you can ask for from an employer: trust, friendship, loyalty, honesty.
SBJ: Do you expect to bring anyone with you from ESPN or are there limitations on what you can do in that area?
Shapiro: I have no intention of bringing anyone with me. People have terrific careers here, have had terrific careers here at ESPN. They think of ESPN as part of their family. My team is very senior and my departure will only open up more opportunities for them here at ESPN.
SBJ: Let's get back to your time at ESPN. How have you changed personally in your time there?
Shapiro: That's a very good question. You know I'm not really sure I've changed more than ... you know, I've matured a lot. I've learned a lot. I've learned more about what I don't know than what I know. I love opportunities like Red Zone because it's very parallel to what I had at ESPN, which is come in, re-energize a place, bring some life to it, spark creativity, take risks, build a team and win. And I felt like we've done a lot of winning and we've had a lot of success and it's happened because of a lot of hard work from a lot of very talented people. And once you feel that you've closed that chapter, you've accomplished much of what you set out to do, it's time to move to the next challenge. And you know most of my stops, when I started in L.A. to ESPN, I was there three years. And I did the "SportsCentury" project for three years and then I got into programming for two years, and then I had programming and production for three years. It's things like that, I like to stick and stay, but I'm not one for maintenance.
SBJ: Is there any one person who's been a mentor to you or an inspiration to you? Who's influenced you the most?
Shapiro: Well, I think in term of influences. ... The most influential figures in my life are Steve Bornstein and George Bodenheimer when it comes to all facets of life, not just work, but family. They're two brilliant managers, two great motivators of people that have two very distinct styles of leading people, and I think that the combination of their two styles would give you the ultimate leader of people.
SBJ: If you could have one day as commissioner of any sport and could make one change, what would that be?
Shapiro: We lobbied the NFL for years to open up their season on a Thursday night. They're doing that now, and I think it's proven to be a great success. I'd love to see NFL games get to the point of miking players and having sound inside the huddles or on the sidelines or in the locker room as a norm, not a casual occurrence. I'd also love to see them allow us to interview athletes on the sidelines during the games.
SBJ: Anything with other sports?
Shapiro: I'll tell you one thing: I applaud the commissioner of baseball because they take action on so many ideas that they come up with. But one that I don't think works that well is interviewing the managers during the game. What do you get? You get two throwaway questions with throwaway answers. And I'm not sure how that does anything except disrupt what the manager is trying to accomplish with his team and at the same time just give the viewer very, very light substance.
SBJ: You see that a lot in sports: interviews where nothing is said.
Shapiro: That's as much the fault of the interviewer as it is of the athlete. I don't see athletes or coaches or managers getting away with that when Bob Costas interviews them, or Bryant Gumbel or Bob Ley ... people who do their homework and aren't afraid to ask a tough question. Get in there and get dirty. At the end of the day, they're respected for it.
SBJ: Do you think that happens enough on TV right now?
Shapiro: No, it doesn't happen enough. At ESPN we hired Don Skwar of the Boston Globe. We teamed him up with Vincent Doria, who you know has a major print background, and John Walsh is one of the founding fathers of sports journalism, and a guy by the name of John Sawatsky, an interview specialist. And that team works with every one of our talent to try and make them better interviewers and help them ask better questions. But we're nowhere near, nowhere near where we need to be. And much of that lies with the responsibility of the individual reporters. They have to be willing to ask the tough questions. They have to be willing to put themselves out there. And too many of them are worried about how it might affect their friendship with the athletes, the coach, the teams and the league. What they don't realize is if they have a pattern of asking tough but fair questions, they'll be respected for it and more people will be willing to open up to them.
SBJ: A show like "ESPN Hollywood," how does that play into that? Doesn't that kind of go in the other direction, kind of hold the athletes up on a pedestal?
Shapiro: That's not a show in any way that's based on journalism. Different business. That's about entertainment. That's about all the things the athletes have no problem letting us into: How they're living their life, what kind of lifestyle they have, what they wear, who they talk to, who they hang with, what they buy, how they play, what other businesses they're into. In many ways, like "Entertainment Tonight" and "Access Hollywood," it's an infomercial for the sports business and the sports industry. But for the viewer it gives you the lighter side of sports, gets you in on some of the inside stories of gossip, allows you to have some fun and doesn't take itself too seriously. Not everything you do has to be hard journalism.
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SBJ: You seem to have a zest for both. You obviously love the journalism, but you also love the fanfare and something like "ESPN Hollywood." That's very much you as well, isn't it?
Shapiro: Yeah, really I do. I love the original programming. I love them both because at the end of the day they both tell stories. One of them's more serious, more real to life, more investigative and more in-depth, requires you to use your brain more. And sometimes you want to turn it off a little, get the lighter side, have some fun, smile, get a little peek on what you're not necessarily supposed to be seeing from the athletes that you watch and listen to. You get that with the other shows.
SBJ: With the investment that ESPN has with major properties, can you ever do true journalism?
Shapiro: With the right leadership, you can because ESPN has established a church-and-state relationship. So, while [the properties] can stop you from fictionalizing too close to reality, as the NFL did with "Playmakers," they can't stop you from seeking to observe and report the news. ... It got us in trouble with Ohio State reporting on Maurice Clarett and wrongdoings with Ohio State. In fact, it got our relationship sideways with Ohio State for over a year. I just met with the new Ohio State athletic director last week and we agreed to start anew. But in the end of the day, he respected what we had to do.
Do I think the NFL would have dropped us as a partner because of the "Playmakers" series? Absolutely not. They're running a business and we're the biggest buyer. At the end of the day, we decided we didn't ... I don't think we realized the way that the NFL was going to react to that extent, and we decided not to pour salt in the wound. But who I think suffered was the fan because the fan loves the NFL more than any other sport, and most fans loved "Playmakers." It was commercially a monster success for us. And they understood that one was fiction and one was reality much the way that "West Wing" and the White House are. They could make that distinction. The NFL couldn't. And we adhered to their feelings instead of our fans.
SBJ: Do you think it affected the next negotiation?
Shapiro: Not at all. It was so many months later that it was gone. I think they respected the fact that we heard their displeasure and we responded to it.
SBJ: There are a lot of pundits out there that think you guys could have had both the Sunday and Monday NFL packages for not much more than you paid for Monday had you done the deal earlier, had ABC and Disney not waited. Any validity to that?
Shapiro: There's probably some truth to that, but I applaud Bob Iger and his vision and his decision-making process. From day one, he said he was unwilling for the Disney company to stomach the kind of losses that ABC was saddled with [from] "Monday Night Football." He gave a price he was willing to spend, which would keep ABC at worst at break-even, and he never moved off that price. To the NFL's credit, they had a lot of buyers. And they got somebody that was willing to pay that money and more and lose more. And all the power to 'em.
SBJ: You think NBC will definitely lose money?
Shapiro: All I know is ABC was paying what they were paying and losing various figures that were [widely] reported. And NBC's now paying more. I don't think their sales staff is that much greater. I should say, given that ESPN and ABC have combined over half the sports media GRPs in television, I don't see how they can command any greater pricing than we were getting.
SBJ: They say they got a better package in part because of that pregame exclusivity that took something away from you guys that was very successful. Can that be the difference?
Shapiro: Of course not. Successful to what? The tune of $20 million? $20 million is not going to make or break profitability for their package. Let me say this, though: I think the deal was a smart deal for NBC. Timing was perfect. Prime time is suffering. They're in a rebuilding stage. And in one fell swoop they put a heavy contender on the board.
SBJ: Let's talk about baseball real quick. That's another deal with a big rights fee increase after a long negotiation. Could you have gotten a better deal if it was earlier and maybe Comcast hadn't come into the picture?
Shapiro: No way. That one's different. No way. There's different ways to account for what we were paying and what we weren't and all that, but as you know, ESPN was paying $200 million-plus in the last couple years of our deal. And we're now paying south of $300 [million] for more rights, more exclusivity, and on a product, for a product that seems to get hotter with every given year, if that's possible.
SBJ: Does Comcast being in the mix ultimately affect rights values? There's competition that wasn't there before ... that's got to send things upward.
Shapiro: Yeah, I think that having competition absolutely sends rights fees north. But I think that Comcast is trying to build a different sports business than ESPN has because they realize that the model that ESPN has built and established can't be duplicated. I don't think they have any thoughts of building a national sports brand that seriously competes with ESPN. That doesn't mean that there isn't a space for them to have success and maybe even greater success than ESPN, but it'll be on a different, different level. It'll be more niche and more regional.
SBJ: So you say whatever they do nationally will be as an overlay to what they're doing regionally?
Shapiro: You got it. I think the foundation of their strategy, the foundation lies in their ability to serve local sports towns and fans with local sports interests.
SBJ: When you guys didn't exercise the option to keep the NHL ... over a relatively small amount of money ... some would say that you woke a sleeping giant by giving Comcast an in on major league sports that they didn't have before. And years from now you may look back and say, "God, if we had just spent $30 million more we could have shut them out. Instead we let them in." Are you thinking on that?
Shapiro: We made the right decision, and time will tell that we made the right decision.
SBJ: Why are you so confident?
Shapiro: The products that are already in our house and the future strategy of those yet to enter. The simple fact of the matter is, if you want to continue delivering ... if you want your business model to work the way it's been working, you simply can't afford to pay any price at any cost. You just can't do it. You have to have some discipline now and then. And I applaud Bob and George for having the discipline on the ABC portion of the NFL. In the end run, I think they'll prosper from it and the network will prosper from it. And I applaud, and I obviously believe that our strategy on the NHL was the right one. They have some rebuilding to do. We'll be there to help them rebuild even though we don't carry the rights. We hope OLN is successful in rebuilding them because a strong NHL is good for sports, and anything good for sports is good for us. We'll be there at the Stanley Cup with "SportsCenter." We'll show their highlights in and out. We'll cover them on a daily basis. We'll report the news just as we have before. And if and when they rebuild themselves to be worth the value they're seeking — I'm sorry, the price they're seeking — we'll be there to pay it.
SBJ: When that all happened you were very frank. You didn't just follow the athlete speak or the executive speak and it's something that I think a lot of reporters have found very refreshing over the years, but maybe not all the people you do business with feel the same way. Give me your thoughts on that ... why you don't hold back ... in those situations.
Shapiro: There's a time for political correctness, and certainly you have to be sensitive to the feelings and plights of others, but I don't think anyone appreciates insincerity and I just always try to carry myself with straightforwardness. I don't like to twist the truth. I don't like to lie. Not comfortable with it. If I'm going to speak, [I'm] being straight up. I have no problem not speaking, but much of the role I had at ESPN was as a spokesman, one of the foremost spokespeople of the company. I respect the job of reporters. They have a job to do and they're seeking answers, and I try to answer their questions as directly as I can.
You know relationships mean everything to me, and people mean so much to me, and my friends are the end all for me. There wasn't anything I said that Gary Bettman didn't know I was going to say first, nothing that I didn't discuss with Gary Bettman first. What was I saying? I was saying that the NHL wasn't worth the price they were seeking at this time given the labor stoppage and we weren't interested in paying them even close to that unless they did the rule changes. You know what? They did the rule changes, but we still didn't think they were worth the money. I was straightforward and at the end of the day we said we wouldn't do a deal and we didn't do a deal. So no surprises for Gary Bettman. And no hard feelings. And you know what, our friendship hasn't suffered one iota. And I'm very, very confident that the NHL will one day be back on ESPN.
SBJ: The word "brash" always comes up when anyone ever writes about you. Do you think that's a fair description of you?
Shapiro: I don't know. It's easy to look at somebody and try and describe; it's another to self-evaluate. If "brash" means being able to speak your mind, being aggressive, fighting for your people and your company, and carrying yourself in confidence and not hesitating to be tough, but when you're tough make sure you're fair, responsible and sensitive when you have to be, then I guess I'm brash. But I've always thought that that word gets branded on anyone who's young that has some success and gets that success by being aggressive and an out-of-the-box thinker. One of the reasons I'm hard-charging is that I'm extremely passionate. If you're not willing to get both hands and feet dirty and jump in, all in, why's it worth living or working?
