SBJ/June 13-19, 2011/Franchises

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  • The Streak

    At first glance, it does not make the least bit of sense.

    DAYTON DRAGONS
    The Dayton Dragons have sold out Fifth Third Field for every game since they began play there in 2000.
    The Dayton Dragons, poised early next month to set the U.S. professional sports record for consecutive home sellouts, play in one of the most economically ravaged areas of the country. As a Class A minor league baseball team from the Midwest League, the Dragons don’t have a fraction of the player name recognition or star power of any of the big league sports teams.

    With 70 home games a year, the Dragons suffer all the same vagaries of weather and less attractive Tuesday night dates as any other baseball team playing outdoors. Their first 11 seasons included only four winning campaigns and just one in the last eight years.

    Yet in this tightly knit southwestern Ohio region of about 1 million people, the Dragons have sold out all 805 games thus far at their Fifth Third Field since beginning play in 2000 in downtown Dayton. If rain holds off over the next few weeks, the Dragons will surpass the Portland Trail Blazers’ 16-year-old record of 814 straight home sellouts on July 9.

    Then they’ll throw a large-scale gala at the ballpark July 23 involving, among many others, minority team owners Magic Johnson and Archie Griffin and a large collection of government and industry officials. The event, in many ways, will celebrate the special, historic and unusually deep bond between the Dragons, owner Mandalay Baseball Properties and the Dayton region.


    Sellout after sellout after sellout …

    The longest sellout streaks by number of games (including postseason)
    in each major league:

    LEAGUE GAMES FRANCHISE STARTED
    NBA 814 Portland Trail Blazers 1977-95
    MLB 663 Boston Red Sox 2003-current
    NHL 487 Colorado Avalanche 1995-2006
    NFL 348 Washington Redskins 1966-current
    Other current streaks of note:
    LEAGUE GAMES FRANCHISE STARTED
    NHL 360 Vancouver Canucks Nov. 2002
    NBA 356 Dallas Mavericks Dec. 2001

    Note: Through June 10.
    Source: SBJ research

    “They’ve absolutely captured lightning in a bottle,” said Pat O’Conner, president of Minor League Baseball. “They hit on so many things in a special way, and together they really exemplify what’s truly unique about minor league baseball.

    “You have stability of their affiliation [with the nearby Cincinnati Reds] that stands out. You have a strong level of commitment from the city and region’s public sector. You can’t overlook the high quality of that management team and ownership. The facility and game-day experience are first class in every way, and tickets remain affordable. And they’ve fought hard against contentment and complacency.”

    No accident

    Mandalay’s involvement in Dayton baseball began in early 1999 with a rather audacious idea: What if every game sold out, not only in year one, as expected, but in every subsequent season?

    Such was the question and challenge that Jon Spoelstra, then Mandalay’s managing director of professional sports properties, posed to his colleagues. And since the Dragons would be relocating from Rockford, Ill., with no history in Dayton, Mandalay felt it had a clean slate with which to work.

    “This was one we could really start from scratch, a total blank canvas,” said Howard Nuchow, another former Mandalay executive, now with CAA Sports, who was crucial to the early success of the Dragons. “The idea was to have this be sort of the distillation of all our best practices and ideas. As crazy as it is to think about it, what’s happening now was pretty much imagined right from the start.”

    Not that there wasn’t already some affinity for Dayton among the ownership group. Hank Stickney, then Mandalay Baseball’s chief executive, went to Ohio State and served briefly at nearby Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

    But, even so, as Mandalay’s team began to lay the groundwork for its arrival in Dayton, resistance from the town was initially severe. Most pointedly, anger and questions surrounded the group’s plan to build a new ballpark on the eastern edge of downtown.

    No one from the suburbs went down there anymore, the critics claimed. A series of one-way streets surrounding the planned ballpark site were going to snarl traffic, others said. Still more locked in on the lack of adjacent parking, even though thousands of spaces were within a short walk.

    “It was hard at first for people to visualize what this was going to be,” said Mike Turner, former Dayton mayor and now a Republican U.S. congressman representing the Dayton area. “We didn’t have anything like this. We just didn’t have a point of reference.”

    Fifth Third Field, buttressed by a 20-year naming-rights deal with the Cincinnati-based bank reportedly worth more than $4.3 million, opened in April 2000 amid a frenetic construction schedule still unfinished when play began. Like many opening days in a new town, that first game was a sellout, full of pomp and circumstance, including an appearance by Reds hall of famer Johnny Bench.

    But Turner said the bond between team and town actually began in earnest immediately after the game.

    “Opening Day was so exhilarating, but I think it really codified when the fans got back into their cars, got home in only a few minutes, and found the commute so easy,” Turner said. “A lot of the uncertainty dissipated right then and there.”

    Pledge of support

    Bob Murphy, the Dragons’ team president, and Eric Deutsch, executive vice president, stood by the Fifth Third Field exit gates after a recent game, an excruciating 11-10 loss in which a Beloit (Wis.) Snappers ninth-inning, pinch-hit grand slam helped erase what had been a 10-5 Dayton lead.

    DAYTON DRAGONS
    Stars for the nearby Reds like Joey Votto (here in 2003) have played their way to the majors through Dayton.
    Murphy and Deutsch were there to wish the attending fans a good night as they left, just as they’d done the night of each home game for the last 11 seasons, win or lose. Many team owners at times walk their stadium concourses during games and answer fan letters. But not many, and perhaps none, do so with the regularity and consistency of Murphy, Deutsch and the team’s general manager, Gary Mayse.

    “They’re always there, always around,” said Jeff Hoagland, president and CEO for the Dayton Development Coalition and a longtime season-ticket holder. “You can’t really make that sort of stuff up. It’s either who you are or not, and it’s just who they are. They truly walk the walk.”

    A fundamental component of the Dragons’ business plan, and a key ingredient in the sellout streak, is a relentless approach to customer service that is laid out in a 10-point written pledge. While the pledge started with the Dragons, nowadays every employee across all of Mandalay Baseball Properties must sign the document every year.

    That pledge, inspired in part by the noted customer service success at Disney theme parks, includes a lot of seemingly obvious tenets, such as thanking fans at every opportunity and employees’ taking immediate ownership of issues that arise. But the Dragons then back that up with a comprehensive “Dragons University” employee education and training program that workers must pass before they’re allowed to interact with the public.

    “We’re absolutely obsessive about this stuff,” Murphy said. “Every single touchpoint with our customers has to be a positive and special one, and has to reflect the core values we’ve laid out.”

    Those core values, in turn, manifest themselves in a variety of business practices unusual for a minor league baseball team, let alone one operating at the low Class A level.

    Season-ticket renewal notices, and then the ticket books themselves, are mailed each year in an ever-changing set of elaborate, custom-designed keepsake boxes and containers. The incremental fees for printing and postage compared with more standard mailings each year run well into five figures, not an inconsiderable sum for a minor league team.

    “But the idea is to make this look as far away from a cable bill as possible,” Murphy said. “We’re still building a brand, and trying to create an emotional connection, and those renewal pieces are a key component in that.”

    The ticket sales operation works on a similar, against-the-grain philosophy. The club sports about 5,500 season-ticket accounts, with a waiting list of more than 8,000 people. But over the club’s decade-plus existence, the Dragons have seen a steadily increasing number of partial season-ticket plan holders, and have talked many patrons out of renewing at a full-season level and instead downgrading to a smaller package if they were found to have not been using many of their tickets.

    “Even in some of the early frenzy, we just weren’t going to take a larger sale simply for the sake of taking the larger sale,” Murphy said. “We spend a lot of time with our fans figuring out what package is the best fit for them. We want the tickets to be used, and we want to get a good rotation of people coming through here.”

    Even with the constant run of sellouts, the Dragons retain a fully staffed eight-person sales team that spends much of each summer simply checking in on ticket holders and ensuring that they remain satisfied.

    The Dragons’ up-front spending on their game program, PlayBall, also sets them apart. Unlike most minor league clubs, which print a new program and scorebook each homestand or each month, and often charge for it, the Dragons print a new 32-page book for each home game, and give it away. PlayBall does, however, represent a core platform for Dragons corporate sponsors.

    “Pretty much everything we do is designed to be the hard way,” Murphy said. “How we sell, how we market, everything, is harder. But we see a greater reward over the long term.”

    The Dragons’ ticket renewal rate typically exceeds 95 percent each year, and its 2010 total attendance of 597,433 ranked fifth in all of Minor League Baseball, trailing four Class AAA teams.

    DAYTON DRAGONS
    Several mascots entertain the fans, including Gem (left) and Heater.
    Like many major and minor league teams, the Dragons offer giveaway items such as bobbleheads, caps and T-shirts. Not a single one of them, however, carries any corporate logo. They are funded entirely by the team.

    Similarly, the Dragons spend “deep into six figures” annually for their elaborate run of in-game entertainment, company officials said, built around a “Green Team” of staffers and interns who run the activities. With more than 70 games and acts in the regular arsenal and several mascots — including a “superhero” named Roofman, who fetches foul balls landing on the ballpark roof and uses special powers to turn them into Softee Balls for children, and a senior-citizen dance troupe called the Retirement Village People — the between-innings entertainment is a central component of Dragons games.

    “Other teams rely on gimmicks, but [the Dragons have] created a much deeper, fuller experience,” said Jonathan Maurer, a Cincinnati-based baseball agent and longtime Dragons season-ticket holder. “I’ve been around to a ton of different ballparks, but you never get tired of going to a Dragons game.”

    The Mandalay pledge also informs the club’s extensive involvement in charitable efforts. Among them is its MVP Program involving nearly 1,000 classrooms in three surrounding counties in which top-performing fourth- and fifth-graders are recognized each year at the ballpark. Dragons tickets and merchandise are used to recognize and inspire student effort, and unlike many other more standardized education rewards programs, teachers have complete latitude to determine the criteria for their respective student MVPs.

    “It’s pretty much impossible to go to a fundraiser, silent auction, church picnic, what have you, around town where the Dragons aren’t already there with tickets, merchandise or some other kind of show of support,” said Shelley Dickstein, Dayton assistant city manager for strategic development.

    Mandalay and Dragons officials declined to identify the club’s financials amid all the additional operational spending, citing their status as a privately held company, but Murphy said the club is and has been profitable.

    Unusual stadium

    DAYTON DRAGONS
    Fifth Third Field seats 7,200, but berms allow the Dragons to push their average attendance beyond 8,400.
    A quick scan of Fifth Third Field reveals a facility very much unlike those around the rest of Class A baseball, and even many ballparks in the higher classifications of the affiliated minor leagues. The park features a full 360-degree concourse, a second deck of seating, live game video on the scoreboard, and a 3,100-square-foot team shop.

    The 7,200 seats, representing the core sales threshold for a sellout, all have seatbacks and cupholders. The ballpark has 29 suites and three party decks, big numbers for Class A. There are no bleachers, but several lawn and berm areas allow the Dragons to push their annual average attendance beyond 8,400 a game.

    Unlike many minor league stadiums dotted with billboards from seemingly every local company of consequence, Fifth Third Field is almost Olympics-like in its in-venue corporate austerity. The outfield wall features only one fixed sign — the Fifth Third Field logo — though more than 240 feet of electronic signage was installed in 2004. The extent of that Daktronics signage, essentially ringing the entire outfield minus the batter’s eye, was the largest of its type in baseball at the time of installation, and remains an anomaly in the minor leagues.

    The main scoreboard features eight core sponsors, known as founding partners. Overall, the club is aligned with 55 sponsors, less than half the number for many minor and major league teams. But the relative exclusivity of a Dragons sponsorship has enabled the club to command higher fees.

    “We’re not going to step over twenties to pick up quarters,” Murphy said. “The idea is to have the ballpark be anti-clutter.”

    DAYTON DRAGONS
    The Dragons opt for a tight sponsor roster and, beyond the scoreboard, a ballpark sporting relatively few logos.
    Several Dragons sponsors said the club feverishly pitches them on new ideas for activation and marketing around the club.

    “They’re always in front of us with new ideas,” said Vail Miller Jr., chief executive of Heidelberg Distributing Co., a major Anheuser-Busch distributor operating in the Dayton area. “They’ve taken the time to really study our business and figure out how it fits with theirs. We work with a lot of other teams in the [major leagues], and you get a sense these guys in many ways have more to offer.”

    Similarly, Fifth Third Bank has replicated its Dayton naming-rights deal with several other facilities, including the Class AAA Toledo Mud Hens.

    “Dayton, when we signed it, was the largest single piece of our marketing portfolio, and it’s given us considerable exposure,” said Dan Sadlier, now retired from the position of president and chief executive of Fifth Third Bank. “Remember, we were this Cincinnati bank that Dayton didn’t really know, and the Dragons gave an opportunity to demonstrate our commitment to this community.”

    A changing Dayton

    The Dragons’ sellout streak has occurred during a time of massive transition for the Dayton region, similar to what’s occurred across much of the Midwest. For decades a rather traditional Rust Belt manufacturing hub, Dayton has seen General Motors in 2008 close a major assembly plant in nearby Moraine, Ohio, auto parts supplier Delphi winnow from about 15,000 local employees a decade ago to less than 300, and technology company NCR Corp. in 2009 shift its global headquarters to Duluth, Ga., after 125 years in Dayton.

    Some local leaders suggest the Dragons have served as something of a community balm during the turbulent economic times.

    “When people fall into chaos, they look for constants, and the Dragons have been an absolute steady during a lot of chaos and change for us,” said Jim Leftwich, director of the Ohio Department of Development.

    Dayton-area unemployment now stands at 9 percent, its lowest mark in more than two years. The area has embraced a new mantra of “Meds, Eds and Feds” in which local health care operations, universities and the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base have all experienced marked growth.

    “The Dragons are very much a core part of the message we now communicate to other candidate companies looking to come into the Dayton area as an example of what this community is all about,” Leftwich said. “And if we can get them on-site to the ballpark, so much the better.”

    Executive stability

    The trio of Murphy, Deutsch and Mayse and their individual skills are widely credited as another key element in the sellout streak. The three, along with five other front-office employees, have been with the Dragons their entire existence, a rarity in an industry known for high turnover.

    But Mandalay has sought to strike a careful balance in which the three lead executives are given additional corporate responsibilities without uprooting them from Dayton. Four years ago, Mandalay promoted Murphy to chief operating officer for the Mandalay Baseball portfolio. The presidents of Mandalay’s five other teams report to him.

    Deutsch is executive vice president of administration, and Mayse is executive vice president of facility operations.
    As a result, they have spent considerable time over the past few years aiding newer Mandalay teams such as the Class AAA Oklahoma City RedHawks and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Yankees, and seeking to repeat the Dayton formula.

    “Fortunately, this is a company where we’ve continued to be challenged, and are always asked to keep raising the bar, not only here but across all our properties,” said Murphy, a Buffalo-area native who before moving to Dayton ran business operations for the Las Vegas Thunder of the International Hockey League and Las Vegas Stars of the Pacific Coast League.

    Art Matin, Mandalay Baseball Properties president and CEO, said that Dayton’s management structure, in turn, is a model for the whole company.
    “It’s hard to completely bottle that continuity in every situation, but one of our key principles is being able to give highly capable people the opportunities to keep growing with us,” Matin said. “There is unquestionably a core template, that leadership and the love affair between the team and community they’ve created, that we’re always attempting to replicate.”

    Then there is the fun factor. Any successful minor league team makes fun a central component of everything it does in its business operations, and it’s immediately obvious that the lead executives still enjoy what they’re doing in Dayton. As the Dragons completed that ugly loss to Beloit, Murphy was nonetheless beaming as he stood at the exit gates.

    “I just had a woman come up to me and say it was her first time here and she can’t wait to come back,” he said. “That’s exciting. We’ve just made another new fan.”

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  • Jets maintain sponsor dialogue

    With the lockout clouding all things in NFL marketing circles, some teams chose to postpone their partner summits until next year. Not so for the New York Jets, somewhat perturbed by the lockout’s impact on their ability to capitalize from a second consecutive AFC Championship game appearance. The Jets’ success last season helped push gross revenue up 32 percent, increase sponsorship revenue by 50 percent, and propel team merchandise sales into the league’s top 10.

    Nonetheless, Matt Higgins, executive vice president of business, said the team felt a real need to share plans, such as they are, and to do some hand holding. “We’ve got partners contributing hundreds of millions of dollars in one place and there’s got to be positives about gathering them together and sharing where we are with them,” he said.

    JOSE REY / NEW YORK JETS
    New York Jets owner Woody Johnson makes the rounds at the team’s partner summit.
    Higgins and other Jets officials echoed the sentiments of NFL team personnel across the league when they said the only way they could cope was by preparing for business as usual. “Our focus is to be ready, so when we get the green light we can sprint,” said Marc Riccio, the Jets’ vice president for corporate sales and marketing, noting that the team had just signed off on a relatively expensive direct-mail ticket piece.

    To some degree, the amount of sponsor anxiety is dependent on the category. Those with retail programs planned were undeniably more nervous than those without. Even so, some of the former were proceeding like it was just a “regular season.” The afternoon before the Jets summit, Pepsi did a shoot with Jets quarterback Mark Sanchez in Manhattan for some point-of-sale ads, while Gatorade did the same with New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning.

    “We’re planning like there will be a full season, regardless,” said Mark Rooks, director of sports marketing at Pepsi, a sponsor of the NFL and the Jets. “The NFL is our biggest property, so we have to be ready to go for whenever, and, if it’s necessary, we can move programs and support to the [NFL] International Series, Thanksgiving Weekend, or the playoffs.”

    Woody Thompson, Octagon executive vice president, posed a question resonating across the league’s corporate patrons when he asked, “Is there any legitimate reason why a sponsor would be at retail with any kind of NFL display if they aren’t playing?”

    One of four new promo spots from Jets cable partner SportsNet New York has Jets imagery and footage. Marie DeParis, SNY vice president for marketing and business development, said that spot will join the rotation soon, regardless of the lockout’s status. “We’re all in a waiting game,’’ she said, “so it’s all about adjusting quickly.”

    Added Alex Gomez, vice president at Van Wagner Sports, which consults New Meadowlands “corner partners” Pepsi and Met Life, “There’s so much money at stake, we all believe there will be an NFL season. To me, the much more serious question is the labor problem facing the NBA.”
     
    NEW, NEW MEADOWLANDS: Thad Sheely, the Jets’ executive vice president for finance and stadium development, detailed $5 million in capital improvements scheduled to be completed for the second year of football at the Jets’ and Giants’ $1.7 billion home field. Some of the needs were discovered by online surveys, fan intercept, and by “secret shoppers” in the building. They include things as vital as a more robust data network, to the more banal, like bird netting. They also include 40 percent more men’s rooms in the upper deck, an area in which end zone fans will also get canopies for protection during rain and snow. Sheely said the Jets are also working on game-day mobile applications, like one through which consumers might be zapped e-coupons when approaching a particular sponsored section or concession area. Payment via cell phone is also on the drawing boards, he said.

    SOCIAL SECURITY:  Every consumer marketer nowadays is being pressured to deliver marketing programs that use social media, so naturally sessions dealing with that topic were the most well-attended during the summit. Jets marketers noted that a weekly Facebook photo submission contest sponsored by Motorola yielded about 20 million impressions and is expected to be replicated by many Motorola-sponsored NFL teams this season. As for what’s next in the fast-shifting social media world, Higgins said he’s closely watching Tumblr, a site that enables simple, short-form blogging. Also generating discussion were “social serendipity’’ sites, like Yobongo, which use GPS technology to aggregate proximate strangers with similar interests, for example, at an NFL venue.
     
    JOSE REY / NEW YORK JETS
    The Jets sold 6,000 cases of their branded Cabernet Sauvignon, but league rules will make it difficult, if not impossible, to extend the product line.
    NEW LINES: The Jets continue to push the envelope on new business. Having sold 6,000 cases of Jets Uncorked Cabernet Sauvignon since last June with vintner Marco DiGiulio and lifestyle marketing agency Wine By Design, they might be considering extensions. However, league rules now specify that team wines may only be made for commemorative occasions, and since Anheuser-Busch’s new sponsorship rights in the beer category came at a price that surprised even league marketers, any attempts to expand marketing of a competitive product like wine would be looked at unkindly. At the team level, the Jets were able to combine a revenue share with a new sponsorship of a wine bar at New Meadowlands Stadium. Assuming they can find another reason to celebrate, the team would like to add a white varietal, like a Chardonnay, and perhaps a red blend, said Jeff Fernandez, Jets senior director of new business development. Other teams are also looking into creating gridiron vintages. Ready for Minnesota Vikings Merlot?

    Before quaffing, fans might be interested in Bio Force Pro, a new “full-body fitness machine” being jointly marketed by the Jets with Curtis Martin, the team’s all-time leading rusher, and Fitness Quest International. While he doesn’t have quite as lofty expectations, Higgins took note of the $1.2 billion in sales of Total Gym machines, endorsed by Chuck Norris. A soft launch earlier saw pricing for Bio Force Pro reduced from $1,299 to $899. While it won’t be marketed as a Jets machine, the Jets plan on using  their media assets to back the product in about a month, with long-form infomercials from agency Script to Screen — featuring ESPN talent Merril Hoge — slated for late August or early September. The Jets also plan to demo the product at home games.

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  • Ticket campaign has a strong Brooklyn accent

    The New Jersey Nets won’t move to Brooklyn until late 2012, but the team this month is launching an advertising campaign dubbed “One Day” to push premium season-ticket sales at its Barclays Center arena.

    The Nets’ Brooklyn arena won’t open till next year, but the sales push has begun.
    The campaign includes a 30-second television spot that aired regionally during the NBA Finals, a print and digital buy, and a direct mail campaign. The print, digital, direct-mail and radio efforts begin on Thursday.

    The creative for the campaign features two arena seats placed in well-known areas of Brooklyn, including Coney Island and the Brooklyn Bridge. The radio spot features Brooklyn native Larry King.

    Translation is the Nets agency of record.

    Team officials said the goal is to connect fans to both the history and the return of professional sports to Brooklyn.

    “The concept of the ‘One Day’ campaign is that while everyone has been talking for awhile about basketball coming to Brooklyn, that day is finally coming,” said Fred Mangione, chief marketing officer of the Nets. “There have been arena delays, and we have been building up the program, but nothing makes it more real than selling tickets.”

    On June 2, the Nets began selling 4,400 “all-access” season tickets at the 18,500-seat, $800 million Barclays Center, which is set to open on Sept. 28, 2012. The team is selling the lower-bowl premium seats at between $4,356 and $61,000 per season. They include food and drink and the right to buy all other events at the arena. The season-ticket packages also require a three-year contract, with no escalating costs.

    “We are doing a very targeted campaign instead of doing it all across the board,” Mangione said. “We will go wider for general ticket sales early next winter.”

    The Nets next year will play at the Prudential Center in Newark.

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  • Red Bulls, Pacers pick up execs Heck, Taylor

    The New York Red Bulls of Major League Soccer have hired veteran NBA executive Chris Heck as president of business operations, while the Indiana Pacers have hired a new chief sales and marketing officer in veteran industry executive Todd Taylor.

    Heck joins the Red Bulls after spending seven years at the NBA, most recently as senior vice president of marketing partnerships, a position in which he was responsible for running the day-to-day business operations of USA Basketball.

    Heck will begin his new job with the Red Bulls on Wednesday. He reports to Erik Soler, the team’s general manager.

    Heck previously worked for the athletic department at Villanova University and for the Miami Heat and Philadelphia Eagles.

    “I’ve been working for 20 years with the hopes of having this opportunity and couldn’t ask for a better setup with committed ownership, a new facility and being in the best market in the country,” Heck said.

    Heck joins the Red Bulls during a season in which the team is averaging 17,776 fans a game at 25,000-seat Red Bull Arena, the seventh best attendance in the 18-team MLS, which is averaging 17,245 fans a game.

    “The focus is to emphasize season-ticket sales and the fan experience,” Heck said, “build on the team’s authentic sponsorships, and reflect the Red Bulls franchise as New York’s soccer team.”

    Taylor will join the Pacers on June 20 as senior vice president and chief sales and marketing officer. He comes to the Pacers after working for the Texas Rangers as executive vice president of ticket sales and marketing since November 2010. He previously worked for the Milwaukee Brewers, Portland Trail Blazers and Columbus Blue Jackets. He reports to Rick Fuson, chief operating officer of Pacers Sports & Entertainment.

    “Todd’s multi-league experience helps expose us to different ways things are done,” Fuson said. “We think we are headed in the right direction and know Todd will be here to help us.”

    The Pacers this past season lost to the Chicago Bulls in the first round of the NBA playoffs and ranked last in average attendance in the 30-team NBA, drawing 13,538 fans a game at 18,165-seat Conseco Fieldhouse.

    “Historically, the Pacers have been a good franchise with strong ownership, and there is a lot of opportunity to make an impact,” Taylor said.

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